I said, “He has named it the Reminder,” and I went on to recite, “Whenever a new reminder comes to them from their Lord ….” That, I explained, may apply to some reminder other than the Quran, something originated, whereas the verse, “Sad. By the Quran rich in Reminder” (Sad 38:1) plainly designates the Quran itself, and it is not originated. “That,” he concluded, “was the evidence with which I confronted them.

“They then argued against me, saying, ‘Allah has not created in heaven, on earth, or anywhere else anything greater than Āyat al-Kursī.’ I replied, ‘He never called Āyat al-Kursī created; it is only a parable. Its greatness is such that it lies beyond creation, and had it been created, the heaven would have been greater than it. Thus it is not created.’

“They also cited the verse, ‘Allah is the Creator of everything’ (al-Zumar 39:62). I countered with, ‘And of everything We created pairs’ (al-Dhāriyāt 51:49). Did He create a pair out of the Quran? Again, Allah says, ‘She has been given of everything’ (al-Naml 27:23). Was she given the Quran? Was she given prophethood? Was she given this or that?

“Likewise, Allah the Exalted says, ‘It destroyed everything’ (al-Aḥqāf 46:25). Did it really destroy every single thing? It only destroyed whatever Allah wished it to destroy.

“On another occasion Ibn Abī Du’ād asked me, ‘Where do you find that the Quran is the Speech of Allah?’ I answered, ‘Recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord—no one can alter His words’ (al-Kahf 18:27). He fell silent. Then, in the presence of the chief, after some exchange between us, I said to him, ‘You and I both agree that it is speech. Yet you claim it is created. Produce your proof from the Book of Allah or from the Sunnah.’ Neither Ibn Abī Du’ād nor his companions denied that it is speech.

“He said, ‘They disliked letting it be known that, in their view, it is not speech, lest the people censure them.’”

Hamzah ibn al-Qāsim narrated to us; he said: Hanbal narrated to us; he said: “He said—