ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz said:

I said, “You are right: He brought them into existence by His power, which has always existed. Do you not say that He has always been powerful?”

He replied, “Yes.”

I asked him, “Do you then say that He has always been acting?”

He replied, “I do not say that.”

I said to him, “Then you must necessarily say that He created by an act proceeding from His power. The act is not the power itself, for power is an attribute of Allah, and it is not said that an attribute of Allah is Allah, nor that it is other than Allah.”

Bishr said, “You too must say that Allah has always been acting and creating. If you say that, it follows that created things have always existed alongside Allah.”

I replied, “You have no right to pass judgment on me, impose on me a conclusion that does not follow from what I say, or attribute to me something I have not said. I did not say that the Creator has always been creating and the Doer has always been acting, such that you could impose the conclusion you mentioned. I only said that He has always been the Doer who would act and the Creator who would create, for acting is an attribute of Allah: He has the power to act, and nothing prevents Him from doing so.”

Bishr said, “I say that He brought things into existence by His power. You may say whatever you wish.”

ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz said:

I said, “Commander of the Faithful, Bishr has acknowledged that Allah existed when nothing else existed, and that He brought things into existence by His power after they had been nothing. I said: if He brought them into existence by His command and His speech, through His power, then, Commander of the Faithful, the first thing Allah created must have been created by a word He spoke, a will He willed, or a power He determined. Whichever of these it was, it is established that there is a will, one who wills, and an object of that will; a word, one who speaks, and one addressed; and a power, one who possesses power, and an object of that power