“He is a believer.”

Another group said:

“We say that he is sinful, neither a believer nor an unbeliever; we assign him an intermediate position between the two.”

They held that he would remain in the Fire forever, and withdrew from the study circle of al-Hasan al-Basrī—may Allah Most High have mercy on him—and his companions. They were therefore called the Mu‘tazila.

The senior shaykh, wearing his gown and cloak, said:

“It is not as you have said. Rather, the first question over which Muslims disagreed was the question of speech. The speculative theologians were called mutakallimūn because they discoursed on that subject. The first to advance this position was ‘Amr ibn ‘Ubayd; after his death, ‘Atā’ ibn Wāsil succeeded him.”

That is how he put it, and he said more along these lines.

I became angry with him and said:

“You are mistaken. This is a falsehood contrary to the consensus.”

I also told him:

“Neither manners nor merit! You have neither addressed me courteously nor answered correctly.”

Then I said:

“People disagreed over the question of speech during the caliphate of al-Ma’mūn and thereafter, toward the end of the second century AH. The Mu‘tazila, however, had existed long before that, in the time of ‘Amr ibn ‘Ubayd, after the death of al-Hasan al-Basrī, early in the second century AH. Those people had neither discussed the question of speech nor disputed it. Their first innovation was their discourse concerning religious designations, the rulings attached to them, and threats of punishment.”

He said:

“Al-Shahrastānī mentioned this in his book al-Milal wa-l-Nihal (Religions and Sects).”

I replied:

“Al-Shahrastānī mentioned that in connection with the designation mutakallimūn: why were they called mutakallimūn? He did not mention it in connection with the designation Mu‘tazila.”